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But we also agree that we have completely different beliefs. I am a Christian and they are Mormons. And that is how it will always be. Of all the places Joseph Smith mentioned, not one trace has been found. He also mentioned items,such as swords that have not been found on this continent. His writings are so obviously a fraud, that I wonder anyone is fooled.
Grace means unmerited favor. It has nothing to do with being righteous. We are saved by Grace not by our works. When we are in Christ Jesus, we have a rudder where we know in ordinary things what is right or wrong. So in this life we will have troubles. Also we repent very quickly and go to bed forgiven in mercy. Jesus is the only one to follow….. Jesus said…. Remember he still has a thorn in his side…True! You said…. If not check with G-d…….. No one comes to the Father except by ME…. Your Church nor your Pastor is the way…. Bless you. That hardly seems fair to anyone except your group.
It is called the Fires of Faith and is freely available. It very clearly disputes your ideas that the books were handpicked and groomed to the tastes of King James. If you are LDS then you should know that your opinions on this differ from what your church officially states….
Oh that your eyes and ears could receive the revelation that your religions serves man and NOT a Holy God. Jesus is the Head and the church is His body. What happens when the head is severed from the body? Jesus and His church are one. The church is also the bride of Christ. There is so much more. The Bible as we know it was actually determined in CE with Constatine and the leaders of the various factions of the Church.
King James was the one who got the Bible translated into the KJV as it was before all the other various translations of the Bible came to be. He only commissioned a translation of the very same books translators had been rendering in English since the beginning of the Reformation starting with Tyndale, continuing through the very popular Geneva Bible, etc. The four gospels we have had been recognized throughout the church from very early on there is strong evidence in the second century. Some creative revisionist history being spun there. King James hand picked the books to be included huh?
Do some actual historical research. What a foolish man you are, that you have placed your trust in your intellect. How sad it will be for you on the Great White Throne Judgement, if you do not denouce your pride and arrogance, falling to your needs with a broken and contrite heart, that the one who saves, may receive you into his blossom, remembering your sins no more.
You clearly have no revelation of what that scripure means. This means we judge another in light of what the Word of God says. So, you my friend stand guilty as charged. Your intellect means nothing to Jesus! Few have understood what the significance of this Scripture. People do not have a revelation of the Lord for themselves, their own revelation from the Lord about himself, without a revelation of the Lord there is no strength to stand in Him.
So beautifully said. I am reading the word more, praying and listening for confirmation—that still, small voice of the Lord. I have not given up on corporate worship. I just got tired. Too busy. Praying and trusting God for my life and the answers. I know he had planted me where I am but I just had to get away for a while. Lord help the organized church. I really am. Thank you for your insight also.
Clearly you have no idea, that you are using the scripture incorrectly and out of the proper context.
20 Bible Verses to Help with Goal-Setting
John That means to judge according to His Living Word. You really should stay away from christian topics and blogs, for your ignorance testifies against you. Fortunately there is more than sufficient evidence even just in the gospels themselves. Unfortunately your logic is foolishness in light of the Holy Scriptures. Your argument is against Jesus, not me, as I only spoke His words! Translations since then may or may not have faltered, but if you think for one minute that God was not in control of that then you have no true understanding of God. And there are books in the Bible go all the way back to Moses who, under the direction of God, wrote the first 5 books of the Old Testament.
God has shown Himself all throughout the Bible, and the churches history, and into today, whither people choose to see it or not. How do I know what I believe is true? The Holy Spirit confirms it. Am thinking of 1 John ?? But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. Same old trick, different cult. All your rightousness is as filthy menstrual rags before the Most High God.
He is not like unto your old man on the planet Kolbol. He is a consuming Fire. Even now He is coming with His Angels to bring judgement. The axe is layed unto the root. This blog would have been better suited years ago. Not to mention your article is more devisive than unifying. I feel this blog merely contributes to a growing group of Christ Followers more interested in the idea of changing the world rather then actually doing it! This is an interpretation.
For me, I see this as Christ saying, I have other sheep who do not yet know me not of this fold , but through you I will bring them into the body of Christ. And what of the baptisms for the dead, which are actually commented on in the new testament. To think as many churches do, that the billions who have lived never even having had a chance to receive the teachings of the Lord, would be damned? How silly would this be? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. And also the requirement that any church of Christ would have the required callings of a prophet, apostles, seventies, bishops, elders, priests, teachers and deacons?
Will you sweep this aside as well? The answer is rather obvious from the context of the gospels.
This is a central point emphasized repeatedly throughout the New Testament Acts shows us the transition, and Paul frequently explains this reality, e. He was speaking of the Gentiles. The other sheep are simply gentiles, that is all of us not the Children of Israel. We are those putting faith in Christ and of the grafted in branch. Meaning us. Too, true. If anyone could have been a Mormon, I could have been one. Fortunately, the Lord took me away from their influence and put me into a bibe believing church. They are a seemingly nice group of people but greatly deceived by Joseph Smith.
Unedited history declares what kind of man he was…a deceitful, Scripture twisting, megalomaniac. Such is the nature of hate, which we all know the root of. It is a shame so many churches feel it necessary to lash out at other faiths in such an un-christ like manner. I remember when the Baptists showed up at one of our pageants to hold signs and protest against us. We treated them with love and rspect and even gave them food and drink.
It is amazing how many of them turned their signs around and stared at the words of hatefulness they were preaching. In the face of such kindness and love they were dumbfounded and many of them left that day. Megalomaniac I think not. Do you forget the opening statement in the BOM? Please be very clear that when Christians defend our faith against that of the LDS church, we are not attacking you. The LDS church claims that Christians do not have the full gospel and that what they do have in the Bible was corrupted as soon as it was set down in writing.
The LDS church claims that Christian beliefs are wrong and that they are the result of a great apostasy. It is very dishonest of you to claim that you would never attack another persons religion or beliefs. I have long removed myself from going to church because of a couple of different reasons. I do not support the church of the LDS nor fully support the Christian church. In , he got the leaders of various factions of some of the branches of Christianity and together, they decided what would put into the Bible and what would be removed.
Now, I do understand that the early church wanted consistency and that some of these gospels and books did not fall in line with their dogma, the whole story is not being told. He did not form the Catholic Church- that was Theodisius. Read some actual history rather than taking the word of internet rumors and conspiracy theorists. Scripture was considered scripture long before official big wigs were around to influence the matter. The belief is that a Greek theologian was the first to put the Bible together the way we know it today.
But all agree that the Second Council of Constantinoble agreed to the books officially. Many believe that books were excluded and destroyed, but who really knows for sure? No, all do not agree that the Second Council of Constantinople agreed to the canon.
That council happened in AD- long after the formation of the Roman Catholic church. Heck, that council was long after Patrick spread the gospel to Ireland and the Celtic Church emerged. Who really knows for sure? Anyone who bothers to read actual history. Most of the notes from those councils have been preserved.
Only by the Spirit of the Lord can we know what should be considered as inspired of Him or not. There is no other way. Anything can be considered a gospel; anything can be considered as a legitimate component of the canon of Scripture, but what does God have to say? Jews went to temple. They observed holy days and feasts, and did sacrifice. They went to synagogue or at least the men did, and they learned Torah orally from an early age. Church is a newer concept, and even before Rome got involved it was nothing like what accounts for church on American soil.
Apostacy is the definition of Joseph Smith…he was an apostate in every sense, which makes me chuckle…. I think it not a stretch to believe that any historical documents that supported his view would have been destroyed also. This was the established method of the Roman Catholic church. At the beginning of this mess, someone suggested that the discussion would descend into bickering about irrelevant technicalities.
And it did. This is why, since I began to think for myself, I have never felt closer to my Creator than when I was in the midst of a forest or a vast desert, deep in meditation, and usually alone. As long as there are individuals. There will be differing opinions. Americans are taught to be free thinking from early on, much of the other cultures are more conformist than those on our soil. Fess up, I know you knew…blessings on your alone time, may you be enlightened sweetie!
Do I have to write provocative articles to get a response from readers? Look it up, go to library go get books on Masons, and compare the ceremonies. Read anything written about the Book of Abraham outside church approved documents. Be bold, be brave, and look at the information outside church explanations about what kind of life Joseph Smith actually lived. And then if you want people who were like you, go read some of the stories that put your religion in context and why many have left.
Stand alone and be their own deal and not try to say they are something, or present that they are something they are NOT. That is where the conflict is, not with you personally. If the LDS church would stand alone, and say we have a different take on how to get to heaven and how to live. Joseph Smith is the basis of the religion, his dreams, his books.
Most of the Christian Protestant denominations only differ on a few points. No more temple rites, no more priestly activities, ceremony. LDS follow the prophet, you sing, follow the prophet songs. Who cares about a prophet, mere mortal, too limited. I am heart sick over how many are duped, why they are duped, and how they continue to be duped. But if you talk to those who left, or go to exmormon. The betrayal the deception really harms. Talk to the missionaries after their 2 yrs, most are so disillusioned. In the book of Revelations And I John looked up and saw a multitude of people I could not count, from every tribe and every nation…….
You dont know who are true believers. Only God know that. I believe GrimEngineer was talking about the governance and organization, not necessarily the doctrine. In either case, perhaps one should not be so quick to cast the first stone. Bible and book burning coming son! Via 3rd party statistics also. The ancient Christian churches do that too. Well, it is not the SOLE job of the preacher to pastor the flock. That is the job of the elders which he may be one of them.
Secondly if the pastor preaches a mess with the Holy Spirit it is very good , and thirdly I believe a church is there to use its gifts to reach out to the people and outside and lost and the church must train them to disciple. There are only two churches, the true and the false, Do you truly know to which church you are referring? Can you tell? Get your butt out of the pew and start teaching yourself, read your bible!
As for the Apostles, they lived a harsh life and gave their life for the gospel, certainly far from Pastors of today who live off the backs of the flock living in cribs in upscale neighborhoods while single parents struggle.. Palease, wake up! I left your faulty brand of church a long time ago!! The scriptures written by the apostles taught them to take care of one another needs, and one of the churches hugest problems is they have become the pastor only church instead of a living organism they became an organisation instead.
The care one for another in the church has basically vanished out the door. The overwhelming amount of churches in America, are business ventures. Men and women attain professional degree, that they may open a church for profit. Jesus says in Jeremiah , that they went out and he did not send them.
They have run with their message and prophesy, but I did not speak to them. Again, their are many false prophets who have gone out in Jesus name for profit. People think the church does not have expenses or responsibilities to the government. Do you think all pastors just suck up all the money??? No, some pay the bills and even have to come out of their personal pockets to help the church stay alive so that the lights are on when YOU do decide to come to church.
How about trying this on, go to church because you need it. Not about anything else. I personally think each church organization HQ baptist, catholic, methodist, etc should collect the offerings and ensure all in the church are taken care of — including the pastor.
There is nothing in scripture to support this teaching that the church is responsible for supporting a pastors lifestyle … it is pure pride and arrogance and misinterpretation of the scriptures. Like it or not, you are not in line with scripture, Mary. It should be the other way around, the leaders living lavishly ought to be caring and meeting specific needs of the poor … where and in what church is this occurring?
Taking scripture out of its context, using it as weaponry, misinterpreting and using half truths are the tools of deception and profiting is the goal, period. There is simply no other justification for money to even play a part. God knew what he was doing when it came to money. The early church understood this and provisions like food and shelter were provided as there was need. Not this ridiculousness we see going on today.
A collection was taking up once for the poor and sent to Jerusalem … today the church, which is billions rich and tax exempt, begs for money repeatedly week after week after week. Go educate yourself about the Jewish Apostles and the way. Ancient Israel and the early church did not run the church like it is ran today. They were a true family, inclusive, caring, loving, discerning. I believe if pastors truly cared for God and his people, he would gladly get a job like the ones who have a job and volunteer for free, while a pastor draws a salary, how arrogant and entitled for a pastor to do this, they just wanna be a God themselves.
Then they would delegate and everyone would have purpose … oh, the pride of some men. I believe any pastor drawing a salary and living off the backs of the week is no man of God at all but a man of self! Now go get a job! Thank you soo much for explaining this. I always wondered how that was to be. Now that I realize it is of the increase.. You do not know how much of a burdon has been lifted. I always felt so bad for not tithing properly that I often simply did not.
I always made sure my kids I am a single mom have offering and I would put in a love offering but the tith was such a burdon that I could not do and always felt so guilty. GrimmEngineer you will never know what that information has done for me. Thank you. I encourage you to study all the Scriptures that deal with the commanded tithe. If you do, you will find that God never commanded anyone to tithe his or her money to the Temple. You will also find that in the New Testament, tithes were never commanded for, carried to, collected in, or controlled by the Church.
God does not want tithe of money, and He never required people living on Gentile soil to tithe. Your tithe is what you want to give to God. Whatever you do decide to give to him should be given cheerfully and without resentment. And remember, it is optional, but this is the only thing that Jesus ever said to test him on.
Pray about it, search scripture, and then give what you are led to give. I hope that in turn you will see those storehouses opened up and poured out upon you for faithfully rising up. As far as criticizing a church for paying their Pastor — he not only works for God, but he works for his people.
It is only fair that he is paid so that he can provide for his family. Would you work endless hours a day, 7 days a week without an income? Almost everyone produced something. Whether it be cattle, or plants or other goods. When you paid your tithes you gave your best cattle, or sheep, or produce etc. For example, Alma seems to pretty clearly indicate that tithing is from all that you posses, same as the KJV. Nephi compare to Malachi My view is this: Old Testament, you owe a tenth of your first fruits to God who has supplied; New Testament, you were bought with a price and every dime, resource, or minute in your possession belongs to God who supplies your needs in order to expand his kingdom and glorify him.
Why limit it to a tenth? To give to the churh is not just monetary. Share your money, time, talents, and resources. It is like any community, you should give as you receive. It is about being in relationship. Its not a monetary relationship… that is not Biblical. You give to God in faith… not out of expectation that you will receive anything in return. God already gave His life for you… He owes you nothing else. Yet you offer no counterpoint. How is anyone to know if YOU have any scriptural understanding?
Without keeping his promises. Words as in words in the Bible are cheap. God broke His promises to me, if there were any promises at all. Do they ask for your salary slip? Why do people fight here about what the tithe is? Tithe is not a tax! It is a free will offering.
They also know that no one can out give God. Unless Saint Peter is expecting all of your check. John have you not read the Bible lately?
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Never saw a miracle in the bible where Jesus gave money to the poor beggars. They knew in their knowers that they need the bread of life to survive. Muslims boast they pray 5 times a day. Christians pray without cease. At least we pray like Jesus pbuh , with our faces to the ground.. Check out how Jesus pbuh prayed in Matt. Tithing is a covenant giving by individuals who foremost have a relationship with God and by grace, understands the principle behind it. It is possible for someone to love God deeply but just happen not to accept tithing. No amount of argument can make anyone to accept the principles of tithing.
Jacob promised God he was going to give it. No one told him to do so. Jacob never said God asked him for it but probably he learnt about tithing from his own father. In almost 40 years of my work experience I have found out how it works. I can speak for myself. I owe no obligation to anyone on this matter to disclose whether or not I am a tither, it is an issue between me and my God. God has been very generous to me over the years in many ways.
More than issues about money, my everyday desire is to please God by the help of the Holy Spirit. Actually, God does not need my money but many people around me do. My attitude towards money can reveal a lot about the content of my heart. Please, I hope you are not offended? Who cares, tithing doesnt save. Faith does. God does not condemn us,Usually its christians quarreling amongst them selves, how better than others one is because you tithe? Huh what Bible do christians read? Feed orphans weekly etc etc not not to pay for a building,pastor ,lights,smoke screens etc etc ,entertainment,extra ministries like coffee shops ,blah blah blah.
Its Grace my friends no matter where you are with God. All fall short of Gods Glory, you aswell no matter how much you tithe. No, no one needs to tear anybody down. It is a matter of explanation based on observations, and personal experience derived from many years of active study and application of the Word of God in a personal life. Perhaps you have read in the Bible also that faith without work is dead?
What gives you the impression that those who tithe do not give to the homeless and support widows and orphans? How did you come to the conclusion that those who tithe do not obey the instruction that they should love God wholeheartedly and love others as themselves? Who told you to compare people on the basis of whether or not one pays tithe? I think it is also a generalised assumption to think that all Churches where there are faithful tithers the money thus generated by the Church goes to the ministers alone or spent on fanciful buildings and frivolous expenses.
As I mentioned in my last post, not even all those who are genuine believers accept the principles of tithing. That being the case, what chance then does an unbeliever has of receiving sound teaching on tithing? This is not to suggest in anyway that you are not a believer it is just that at this point in time you have not yet accepted the teaching on tithing. It does not follow that you cannot receive it in the future if you are already a true believer or become one in the future.
No one can earn any favour from God on the basis of good works alone but surely God rewards obedience, faithfulness and service. Tithing was widely practiced in the old testament as suggested by Malachi — There is absolutely nothing to suggest that those who gave tithe in the old testament failed in their duty to take care of widows and orphans. In the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ He did not say people should not give tithe. He only condemned those who failed in their duty to take care of their parents under the cloak that gave their money to the temple service and as such they had nothing left to give to their parents.
We can talk about tithing from now till the cow comes home without coming to any reasonable agreement. That is what God said. Just obey and see what happens in your life. You may find out that that will be the end of all argument on the issue as far as you are concerned. Of course it is inclusive! In conclusion, as someone rightly pointed out on this forum, we should all go back to the Church and support the work of God in the Church and not look for excuses about faults in the Church.
I hope you understand where I am coming from on this? Before anyone can please our Holy God, we must receive his Holy Spirit as it is written in John 14; Acts 2; This is what Jesus wants you to know and have Peter. Jesus is calling us into repentance and into a covenant with Him through the Holy Spirit which He pray to God to sent to those who wants it. It is a teacher and a guide and to have true worship with Jesus. John 4; We must ask Jesus for His Holy Spirit to live in us.
We must surrender to Jesus and be obedience to His will not our will. Those receive His Holy Spirit and seeking Him, He will open your eyes and mind to the real fellowship with Him until his return for His chosen people who were obedience in receiving His gift of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was the living sacrifice to redeem man back to Him and to fulfill the the promise He gave to Israel and redeem man from their sins, which Adam sin. Lets receive His gift to man Acts 2;38 and than seek Him about how we can financially help in spreading the word of God all over the world, in mission field, etc.
We live in a world now that it takes money to paid for mission work. We have to let God guide us to the ministry He want us to work in and is truly called by Him. If we do our parts as Jesus disciples than let Jesus deal with the wick ministry and people, they are not getting away. If we are struggling, let fast to help someone in more need, or help in the church, cut the grass, pick up trash along the road to your church and community and watch God turn your situation around and cancel outstanding debts we owe.
He will show His people favor with man. Acts 19; So Instead of us fussing our paying tithes we need to focus on having what Jesus said we need to have to return back with Him when he return. I will not hear from you Peter but I pray that Jesus will open your eyes from being a debtor against His chosen people and be a Disciple of His word. Love you in Jesus Name my brothers and sister who will read this message.
You seem to suggest that people who pay tithe love others less and turn blind eyes to the poor. Tear you to pieces? Why is that? Look my brother, this is not a theological debate or intellectual argument. It is about faith, commitment, level of grace, and depth of relationship with God. It is also about experience and exposure. The end of all arguments over this is to try God and see. I agree…. NOT what God wants of us. He is very specific in that as He states….
I feel that means f the r us ALL to make a heart felt decision to do what is right …. The tithe is an OT Law, 1 of If we are to honor 1 we are to honor them all. The tithe was instituted by GOD for his chosen people, the Israelites. God instructed his chosen on how to handle the tithe, who would benefit from it and that it was to be eaten before the Lord. Do pastors today eat the tithe bf the Lord? No, they live lavishly off the backs off their own flock.
They are liars and deceivers. The tithe was not for preachers or christians, it was for the Levite priests and the people of Israel, the Jews and it was also to be brought to Jerusalem for the celebration held there, it was a covenant arrangement. Any man today teaching tithe law keeping is a false teacher! Thanks, but I do not see it that way. Nonetheless, I also know that there are many other genuine men and women of God out there.
My offering is part of my worship. Once I drop it in the offering bowl my obligation ends. I trust God to be able to hold accountable those who thereafter handle the money. In fact, I do not loose sleep over any offering that I hand over after I have done it. Faith in our Lord and Savior; Jesus Christ and to love our neighbor, enemy, and alien is stressed in the New Testament. Certainly the gospels speak of not judging or condemning others, to forgive, and freely give to others is of upmost importance because the measure we do so, will be measured by Him.
There is no rule about giving a particular amount, but to give to another in need is suppose to be done without being selfish or subjective. It is not wise to immediately condemn or judge the other person. Tithing is an immense burden and stress to single parents, abandoned by their spouses, and who are raising their dependent children alone.
When you are hungry, and without a secure shelter over your head, it is a horrible pressure, and a horrible guilt. From a human point of view you are right. Any service that is done involuntarily would naturally be burdensome. When a man truly falls in love with a woman there is no telling what he can do for a newly found love. When the motivation is borne out of love and desire for service, people can for example walk a thousand mile from Europe to Jerusalem under inclement conditions just for the desire to do it. Others can go to places to preach the gospel even when they know they may not return alive.
Precisely, that was what Jesus did for us. He gave His life for us so that we can live. We cannot give more than what Jesus already gave us. You seem to care about poor single parents. There is one very poor single parent I read about in the bible. She wanted to cook for her son and herself their last meal and thereafter there was no hope of any more food coming their way. Then a prophet who I do not envy his position came on the scene and asked for a share out of that meal. From a human point of view that prophet would have been condemned as a heartless man. The poor single mother was willing to share her last meal with a stranger and then a miracle followed.
If you cannot give when you are poor you are most unlikely going to give even if you have plenty. I have found out that those who are willing to give the little they have not under compulsion always come back smiling with a testimony to share. The church is always complaining about us not giving when they refuse to hold up their end of the deal. Sorry my ignorance about you here, have you approached your family? I help and give the the person standing in front of me at any given time, whom G-d sent for me to help.
G-d never demanded a communist system. In fact no system, since we are not of this world, only in it. Tithing of time and talents skills and gifts are worthy tithe. But when did the Lord ever accept anything as a tithe that was different than animals and crops???
Why must we become children in our understanding? Such are no so abundant upon the earth that there is just no money to go around anymore. That sentence of yours I see hundreds of times in all forums. There is plenty of money, it is just in the wrong hands. There is also opportunity to change ones financial future, and it is not god who makes that happen. I have been able to see my situation much more clearly since I left religion than I ever did with any of the Pastors, teachers, and advisers I had in my life as a believer.
I was always taught to spend less not like I had much to spend rather than to learn how to make more. There really is a failure in the American educational and religious systems when it comes to money. God will not provide! We must provide for ourselves. So governments print dollars or whatever other fiat denominations, we need our Father for our to give the increase for our living in HIS way. The church as you see it inthe building with a bell tower or not, consists of people such as yourself, hapless people who sit with lots and lots of worries.
Most of us now no longer have the means for any extravagance, our increase is in the safety of our children, parents, husbands wives. So sorry, I know you have so many needs. Judy, I think you missed my point, and where I am coming from. The church is an organization of people. It reflects their desires. While every society is different, there are similarities; I must pay for food, clothing, and shelter; I assume you do as well.
We must stay alive, because no one can see beyond the grave- is there a life on the other side? No one has seen that.
There are many stories, both Christian and hundreds of other traditions; none of them agree on what it is. We only know of this life and this dimension. If you are depending on an invisible being, then prove your trust is valid by waiting for food and clothing to come to you miraculously, and leave your doors open. Otherwise, your vain claims are meaningless. Tithes were never from firstfruits. Not sure where you heard it was, but wherever you got it from was wrong. Nehemiah And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.
Nehemiah And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house. Notice the firstfruites were taken by the children of Israel to the House of God and into the chambers of the storehouse. But the tithes, they took to the Levites. The Levites, in turn, would take a tithe of the tithe to the House of God into the chambers of the storehouse. Tithes and firstfruits were not the same… they were taken to two different places.
Also, the Old Testament says tithes were given at the end of the harvest, while the firstfruits were from the beginning of the harvest. The pastor is not a Levite Priest and has no authority to take the tithe. My Bible says bring the tithe into His store House. These modern day con artist pimpsters equate their churches to the storehouse. That too is a lie and false doctrine.. This is just a play on words and a method of deception to trick sheeple into giving. Second, during Old Testament times, a storehouse was just that, a storehouse.
The children of Israel took the firstfruits to the House of God, into the chambers. The Levites, in turn, would take a tithe of the tithe to the House of God, into the chambers. It is quite clear that the two, firstfruits and tithes could not have been the same thing. One went one place, the other went to another place. Also, firstfruits were nothing more than a basket or handful of fruit from the beginning of the harvest. Tithes were always paid at the end of the harvest. These two verses alone prove that tithes and firstfruits were not the same.
They reveal that the children of Israel took firstfruits to the House of God, while the tithes they took elsewhere. One might feebly attempt to say that the Levites were at the Hosue of God to receive the tithes from the children of Israel, but the text proves they could not have been. LoL The argument fails in light of the clear text of the Bible. If you are supporting your family and living a good and honest life, and giving what you can to support the church, then I doubt it matters.
Perhaps you all are the problem… ya think? He is a God of multiplication. He took a lunch for one small lad and fed 5, with it. And they were never commanded for, carried to, collected in, or controlled by the New Testament Church. The commanded tithes were for the children of Israel only, and then only once they crossed the Jordan and entered into the promised land.
Leviticus ; Deuteronomy ; Hebrews Who cares? That the church expects so much more from a woman I have my own story to tell about that. This is the BIG stuff that others are ignoring and so are losing many in their congregations. Oh, I agree. The Church is not listening. Many are leaving for the very reasons Pastor Pavlovitz has written. Sometimes, it is because of a spirit of rebellion, hating all that has to do with God.
Other times, it is because the leadership, those who should have a heart of compassion, do not show the heart of compassion to those who need it. And so, those who need to feel loved and cared for, often return to the world where they at least had seeming friends. I was the organist, pianist and soloist at my church by the age of I was told that god had a special place for women in this world and I was doing a great job of it and to stay where I belonged. There is nothing wrong with a woman getting a religious education. Well this was WAY back.
Here are the passages to which I was referred. I Corinthians I Timothy I Timothy I had already read those verses many times, and I saw no connection to the church until the pastor brought it up. I saw it for what is was… and still is. Ome only need flip to the 1 Corinthians 11 to prove the pastors wrong. Says a woman can prophesy if her head is covered.
To prophecy means to bring forth the Word. A woman can indeed bring the Word. I have heard many a woman butcher the Word, but I have also heard many shuck out the corn when preaching as well. Women who are educated in the proper way to minister can be just as effective at preaching the Word as any man… if they are Spirit led. Someone earlier in this thread suggested that the discussion would descend into bickering about irrelevant technicalities, and it did! I have never felt so close to my creator as when I was in the midst of a desert or forest, deep in meditation, and usually alone.
Sorry about that Art Dickinson. It is sad that the church may not be what we hope it should be but with its many problems there are no alternatives to the Church. We should stay back to put the wrong right. Staying in the desert occasionally to enjoy a deep meditation is perfectly okay because Jesus did the same thing but He went back to the temple to challenge orthodoxy.
The leaders engineered His death for his effort. We should stay put to right wrong. It could take time. With genuine interest, intention, love, understanding and patient we can get there. Every fortune teller can say some stuff is going to happen. Guess what. Guess what…. I am an atheist now and was then too. I spend every waking moment trying to save people from religion.
Your gods religion. I will not rest until christianity is shelved in the same place as voodoo and people realize that there is not one true god but thousands of imaginary gods. What is it to u what we believe. There is absolutely no way you could ever convince me god is not real…i know without a shadow of a doubt he is absolutely real. I know he is real more than I know my parents were real.
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And if u put a gun to my head right now and gave me a choice…live or die. To Thomas Everroad….. What a poor pitiful place for you to be. To be your own god must be hard work. What happened to you or what did you see that made you so cynical? Just because people have not lived up to your lofty expectations does not mean that God does not exist.
But God is always here. He does not force Himself on anyone. And that statement about religion…I totally agree with what Mr Twain said that religion is foolish. God hates religion more than we do. Jesus said the greatest commandment of all is to love God with all our hearts and love our neighbor as ourselves. That shows that He knows that if we fulfill those two commandments we will be fulfilling the first 10 completely. If we love people and God we will not steal someones money, we will not murder people, we will not have affairs with their spouses.
Nor does it make Him nonexistent. How do you know this to be true? Is that not just another religion you are preaching? Do you know what you are talking about or is this just your imagination? What you learned growing up was nothing but vain religion. I learned it to. Take a read here.. You are equating religion and Christianity together…. Christianity is about a relationship between the Creator and the created, to restore all things back to its original state before sin entered in.
Proverbs A fool says in his heart there is no God I would dare to suggest the even the late Mark Twain can now say without the slightest hesitation…. The Church has committed many gross sins and errors over her long history. God bless all of you. People walk all thru the service speak out. The wedding, honeymoon and home furnishings were all purchased with credit cards and loans from family. The couple's financial picture was shocking. Unfortunately, their marriage did not last through their first year, and bankruptcy was in the future for both of them.
Surviving the "for richer, for poorer" part of our wedding vows begins with understanding that God has a plan for our finances. In fact, understanding God's minimum requirements for money is a way to thrive in married life as we avoid some of the difficulties that can take place over the course of a marriage. Rather than seeing the goal of a new marriage as the accumulation of things, couples need to build a strong team relationship and seek God first. Jesus talked about the desire to accumulate things and about worries over money.
In Matthew , He advised: "Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. Rather than being owners of all we hold, we are more accurately "renters" in this world — caretakers of what God has given us. Once couples accept that God owns everything and they have simply been chosen to be stewards or managers of His property, then it's important for them to manage according to His principles and standards.
How we faithfully manage what He has given us will determine whether He will give us greater things to manage. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master" Matthew The biblical concept of stewardship begins with understanding that we will be judged by how well we take care of our resources, including the people in our lives. Here are some important truths to keep in mind as you consider how to become better stewards:.
Bible and Money Archives | Catholic Money Management, Catholic Perspectives on Debt
Think ahead to avoid problems. Too often, couples put off planning until they are so deeply in debt that it seems impossible to get out. That's not planning; it's reacting. Couples need to begin planning by writing down their goals and objectives, which should include a balanced budget, and these goals and objectives need to be reviewed yearly.
One of the first goals includes avoiding financial bondage by staying out of additional debt and committing to paying off existing debt. This doesn't necessarily mean that a couple should never borrow money, but borrowing to buy consumables, such as gifts, vacations and clothes, should be avoided. This type of borrowing will put a couple back into insurmountable debt faster than they can pay themselves out of it.
Keep good records. It is impossible for couples to have their finances under control unless they understand the basics of good record keeping. Recently it was discovered that fewer than two out of 10 couples know how to actually balance their bank accounts.